I dislike rap, but I’m glad we occasionally feature it at church.
Now I think a metal band should get a chance.
22 Words
Experiments in getting to the point.57 Comments»
I’m wondering what your father would say to this? ;)
Yes.
I was going to suggest a metal band as well, but you beat me to it.
It’s probably not hip-seeming enough to happen.
The North Campus has yet to enter the hip hop universe (at least in my time there.) I love the choir in the background of the picture.
Here is a new metal band for you to check out…www.myspace.com/inlowrock
Three of the kids were in my youth group. 2 of them I had the opportunity to lead to Christ. Perhaps I am biased but I think these guys have some serious metal talent. They are going on tour this summer. Just thought I’d give them a shameless plug!!!
I dislike hip hop as well but can’t recall the last time I was nearly brought to tears at church.
Stryper reunion.
I like rap for it’s story-telling ability. You can fit so many more words into a rap song! I would love to see more choir-backed rap artists in church. Wouldn’t it be cool to hear Psalm 51 or Psalm 119 rapped with a Gospel/soul back-up? I love mashed-up music like that. Anyway, just a thought….
Don’t waste your flow.
No. No to the first half, and no to the second half. Liberty is one thing, and vulgar abuse of liberty (which is not necessarily hinged on vulgar language — only vulgar materialism) is another.
Just no. There should be no belly dancing in church, either; no clowns; no slide whistles; no fireworks or sparklers. Some things are not meant for worship, and we should just face facts.
Frank,
I normally have a great deal of respect for what you are saying…but this is just silly.
Rap or metal is not the same as belly dancing, clowns, slide whistles, fireworks, or sparklers.
You are right that some things are not meant for worship…but can you really find me a text that says that the form of music such as rap or metal for that matter can not be used for worship through song?
Are you familiar with Flame and the folks at Reach Records? I’d have them at our church before 80% of the CCM people that play piano and a guitar. Or glockenspiel if thats more historical.
Frank, are we just old guys? – because I think the same way. What is it that could cause us to collectively agree that something doesn’t belong in worship that isn’t spoken of in Scripture? Should we just “know”?
I mean, honestly, either I’m losing my mind or the other side is. Or is it that my heart is not right and I don’t see freedom in redemption of things that the world gives us? Would I have blown a gasket when the organ was brought into worship way back when?
I despise Metal music, but is that my problem? I think it represents some the worst of what people describe as music. Yet, here is a generation telling me to not bind the conscience of someone who enjoys the screeching, nor restrict what we could bring to worship.
Mike, I also dislike a vast majority of CCM. You can’t pay me to listen to “Music for your Life” .
I could be wrong, but I don’t think drumsets or electric guitar or contemporary music in general were introduced first in the church or in any Christian circles. I believe those things were considered “innappropriate” for worship. However, most of what we consider “worship” in the 21st century includes those elements as acceptable.
The fact of the matter is music reflects culture and God wants people from every culture. Surely much of the music from Africa (I mean from the continent) was originally pagan but we wouldn’t say it is innappropriate for African native people to worship in their cultural style of music. I find it incredibly powerful to see people worship in their own culture that isn’t my culture. It takes worship to another level for me when I’m brought out of my cultural comfort zone and still completely satisfied with Jesus.
Just my opinion :)
I’m old too, I guess, because I don’t want to hear rap in a church (unless that’s the main music of the church and then, of course, I just wouldn’t attend there).
Not that it’s sinful, it’s just not my thing.
Just no “boy bands” … Please!
:)
I’m thankful that the message of the gospel can be conveyed over such a broad and diverse scope of musical styles. It’s speaks both to the creativity of God as well as to the creativity he gave each of us.
I agree. it’d be really neat. And helpful in exposing our younger people to more christian artists.
Please post the rapper performance on the net so we can all see it. We attended Saturday evening church . . . and were so bummed that we missed it!!!! (with the lyrics)
I agree with Deek, but I think it would be weird to hear rap in church becuase I associate it with vulgarity.
A question for all of you who are open to a myriad of styles: Do you think it possible for a style of music to cross into a realm that should be avoided?
I’m not trying to be snide, I really want to understand. Is it possible that there is a point when “the emperor has no clothes” concerning music? That it goes beyond a cultural matter to where we refuse to evaluate what is good or right?
If I read things correctly we could bang garbage can lids during worhip, apply some godly lyrical content to it, and say it fits in with worship. I submit if all we had were garbage can lids that would be one thing, but that’s not the case here.
Oh, and I do think the song at Bethlehem was quite good, I’m asking if there’s a point when something can be declared an unfiit style.
I’m old, so you can put me with the other oldsters.
It seems that we are obligated to defend ourselves against unspoken suspicions of legalism whenever we don’t just go along.
Do what you want, but don’t throw it into the public worship/Sunday morning venue and then act surprised when 20% of the congregation spends the morning trying to figure out what’s going on.
I can’t tell from the post/responses if this actually was a Sunday morning. If it wasn’t, my comment is not relevant. Then it’s just my opinion!
The urban-reformed crowd makes efforts to make their lyrics understandable. Metal tends not to. Can music be edifying if lyrics are indiscernible?
Just imagine the sound when He laid the foundations of the earth.
If the roar of the sea, the clap of the river, and the song of the hill are worship to God, we can be be assured that we, His children, can come before Him with a joyful noise no matter the genre!
“Rap in an ordinarily non-rap church is good”
I agree.
Besides, it’s not “rap” if you call it “Rythymic Artistic Proclamation” (i.e., R.A.P.).
One of our brothers recently blessed us with just such an offering in corporate worship: “Soli Deo Gloria (For His Glory Alone)“.
I disagree with all of you.
This rapper and his songs are completely Biblically solid. No matter what cultural form it comes from, it comes from SOUND doctrine and thought provoking, Biblical lives.
Also, as far as culture goes, why is that a problem? Will not heaven be filled with every tribe, nation and tongue?
Some of you seem to be missing the point of those of us who are questioning/disagreeing with what is appropriate.
Is it all about lyrical content only? That’s what many of us wonder. Many of you seem indignant that the question is asked. This isn’t about legalism, it’s about applying some reason to what is played. As Sharon said don’t be surprised when a significant number of people are bewildered if anything.
I agree that it’s great when the “special music” in a church comes from a variety of genres. When I hear different kinds of music praising God, I am reminded that every tribe and tongue will praise Him in Heaven!
At the church I grew up in, they played a few songs of bluegrass worship music occasionally. I personally do not care for that genre, but I was happy for the different way to express praise to the Lord.
A question for Ron and Sharon: why would this music be confusing? Does the church not have “special music” from time to time? I’m confused about what would be confusing in this scenario. I don’t go to your church, but I would have thought having a special musical performance from time to time is pretty common in most churches.
I can’t believe I was out of town for this… I LOVE that Lecrae was at BBC!
I like some rap and I can appreciate some metal. But I don’t think I like the idea of rap or metal in a church service. To be all equal opportunity, though, I don’t really like any kind of performance-oriented music in ordinary services because music in corporate worship should allow the congregation together to sing and confess truth from the Bible. And I’m 25, so I doubt this is some kind of generational thing.
On the other hand, If there were a way for the whole congregation to join in–if they could learn the lyrics and participate–I could be convinced.
Emily, It’s not that different music can’t be played. Variety is good.
But no one has yet answered the question: Is there music that a group of people claim is “Christian” that should not be played? I mean, it seems anything goes with genre, and is it possible that a group of people enjoying something does not warrant its value musically?
Say a group of people worship to the sound of various fingernails on a blackboard (creating what could be considered music according to definition), while chanting doctrinally rock-solid words. Is that acceptable for worship?
To be honest with you, what some people call music these days might as well be fingernails on a blackboard.
excuse me? everyone is missing the point here. why does rap music have to fall under the category “variety music” is what I want to know. And it’s ignorant to say that rap is only ok in a church where all the members appreciate rap, or you would “go to a different church”. So are we striving for homogenous churches here?
and music (however you define it!) is nothing wrong- until the culture creates something wrong out of it. there’s nothing inherently wrong or unbiblical about nails scraping on a chalkboard. thats your opinion. if rap is like nails scraping on a chalkboard to you, i think you need to have a higher tolerance level for differences in people, otherwise we WILL have a homogeneous church.
A gifted worship leader will know what is over the top for a particular service. That’s what giftedness does.
Ciera, I didn’t mean to imply anything negative about rap by stating that it’s part of a variety of music. It is one kind of many as is classical, country, rock, and every other kind. I’m mostly an indie/alternative/progressive rock fan myself, but I’ve SO enjoyed the Lecrae and Flame albums I bought this year. Seriously, wow! I agree with your concerns about homogeneous churches.
Ron, I would say that your scenario of worship works for me. According to you, these people are “worship[ping]“. Is that acceptable for worship? Well, if it causes these hypothetical people to praise and give glory to God, why not? This question seems to imply to me that you believe certain genres of music are acceptable in church while others aren’t. Who gets to determine this?
I say that if there is “special music” (for lack of a better term) in churches from time to time, on any given week some members of the congregation will not hear their favorite type. Can we not humble ourselves and serve our brothers and sisters by preferring them in this way?
I never said Rap music was a problem, and I wasn’t inferring that Rap sounds like fingernails on a chalkboard. Ciera, please read what I wrote. I was making a point about what lengths people will go to to defend choice – even to the extent of the absurd.
A lot of people seem unable to think critically about the overall topic. Many of you seem ready to say it’s no ones business to ask the question, and make charges of intolerance against a person who questions or dislikes a type of music – how dare they say it may not be right for worship. Ergo, we could scratch nails on a chalkboard if we so deem it worshipful. Sorry, but that’s crazy talk.
Ciera is charging me with wanting a homogenous church. How did she conclude such a thing by my comment? All I’ve said is it seems that no one wants to consider that a type of music could possibly be unworthy of consideration for worship. Just because people say it is, does not mean it is so.
Spike makes a good point, and that’s why we need solid people leading us.
Here’s the deal. Do you all think because a group of people say something is valid concerning worship, that it must be? Is that where we’ve arrived?
To me, it’s all about the lyrics and the mindset that you have when you listen to the music. I listen to lots of hip hop, some heavy rock, and contemporary worship/praise music (as well as other *gasp* secular music). Lecrae, Flame, Trip Lee, etc. have theologically accurate songs that CAN help me to worship. For example. Don’t Waste Your Life is one that can do just that. Now, there are also songs on their records that I like but wouldn’t want to worship to in a worship service.
To me, the music must be God honoring and glorifying. If you meet that “requirement”, I am all for the music being played in service….BUT you must also understand your audience.
Just my two cents.
Over a period of 3 decades I was directly responsible for leading and influencing the music/leading worship in four different churches, two of them on the west coast.
I always considered it one of my responsibilities to, as far as possible, avoid having anything take place that would detract from worship or make it difficult for individuals to enter in to worship.
Knowingly making use of a music style that was (based on my knowledge of the congregation) sure to irritate, offend, surprise, DISTRACT….them just didn’t make sense to me. My responsibility was to “make room for worship”–not to try to see how far we could push the envelope before someone squawked.
In one of those churches, a newly saved 20′s something girl who had had a part time job singing in bars (slinky dresses, sultry tones, the whole 9 yards) wanted to sing at Sunday worship. The men on staff “felt guilty if they told her ‘no’ because now she’s a Christian”. She got up on 2 successive Sundays and successfully turned familiar contemporary Christian music into seductive-sounding, suggestive-breathy, hip-grinding presentations–because that’s the only way she knew how to sing.
Whether it is rap music, a preacher wearing cutoffs or a screaming baby that the parents don’t remove from the service, why it is considered worth it to deliberately present something that clearly has the potential to distract or offend a portion of the congregation? It is not the responsibility of worship leaders to see how far they can push their body of believers before somebody screams.
The principle involved here does NOT have to do solely with genre of music.
Insisting that it does has a bit of smell of elitism to it, IMHO.
If you are looking for a godly metal band to play at BBC, look no further than “The Great Commission”
right! so i guess Eminem is not rap…
Sharon, you are right on with your post. Although this post is about music so the comments are focused on it.
I still think this comes down not to what an older white guy like me prefers – and I do like a vast variety of music, but whether or not lines of reason can be crossed. I want to learn if I’m offbase on this, so please help me if you can.
Mike’s posting of the video, well, I don’t know what to say. It represents and reminds of what was wrong with my life before I was a Christian – a screaming, chaotic mess. Now I suppose someone could say that’s a valuable thing, to be reminded of the horror of your prior condition, but there are ways other than screaming (even if they are innocent words), which is what this is. Even in my pre-Christian life I would have understood this music as horrible. This to me represents our inability to call things what they are – a postmodern attitude and a Christian distortion of freedom. I surely cannot judge the hearts of those leading or participating – and I may likely find the people participating living obedient Christ-exalting lives, but I can say I find enjoyment and defense of this – perplexing.
Scott –
I am averse to being a fundie about stuff like music because I am certain that there is probably that one song in 10,000 which breaks the mold but proves the rule.
My admission is this: I did not hear the song yet. It might be that one song in the genre which changes my mind. Eventually, I’ll listen to it to be fair to that rapper.
My big, cheesy “however”, however, is that my complaint is against rap music in worship, not against, for example, listening to rap while you drive around town or exercise or whatever. I think there are perfectly good uses for christian metal or christian rap — I just don’t think “in formal corporate worship” is one of them.
I think it’s about the boundries of genres as they relate to corporate worship, not about whether there are any edifying uses of rap or metal. I have Black Sheep, Thin Lizzy and ZZ Top (the old stuff) on my iPod — I just wouldn’t want stuff that sounds like that pretending to be appropriate contexts for corporate worship.
Well… metal is a different category… that video shows a lot of anger being released, even if the words are Christian. It isn’t necessarily “bad” (I like some heavy metal myself) – but how could one worship with such angry music?
With rap, I don’t think it is the most effective form of congregational worship on a weekly basis – going back to the point being for the congregation to enter in and participate, not just watch a performance. Same is true of some rock-and-roll style “worship” songs – if they discourage congregational participation, they are not ideal as the regular form of music in worship.
Thant being said, however, as a “special performance”, I think it is WONDERFUL. A great way to get beyond our normal definitions of worship – and a way to directly communicate rich, deep theology as well as any hymn.
Using rap as a medium for worship isn’t an “abuse” of freedom in Christ. It is “real music” – I can see the beauty in it done well, and I don’t even like the genre generally. Screaming heavy metal isn’t “music” in the same way, I’d agree. But rap is something different.
I grew up in a church where ONLY a-cappella hymns were allowed as a form of church service worship. No instruments. No special music. No exceptions. 30 minutes each Sunday of congregation chosen hymns from the hymnal. That’s it. And worship was VERY homogeneous.
So yeah, rap in church is unusual to me still.
I LOVED being at BBC Sunday morning. I LOVED hearing this song. and YES tears ran down my face. As someone who has been drawn into an overwhelming longing to witness that every tribe and tongue, people and nation worship, I WORSHIPED without distraction, without reservation Sunday morning as LeCrae WORSHIPED (not performed) his Christ-exalting rhymes!
Praise the LORD for this particular RAP. It is our new banner song as we seek to prepare for work in the Horn of Africa. (and no this is not the genre I listen to ordinarily, but Jesus is not interested in the mode HE’s interested in the HEART! and this song expresses our heart)
“waste my life/ no I gotta make it count
if Christ is real then what am I gonna do about
all of the things in Luke 12:15 down to 21 you really oughta go and check it out
Paul said if Christ aint resurrected then we wasted our lives
well that implies that our life’s built around Jesus being alive
everyday I’m living tryin show the world why
Christ is more than everything you’ll ever try…”
“…So lets go, gimme the word an lets go
Persecution lets go
Tribulation lets go
Across the nations lets go
Procrastination must go…”
“Don’t wanna waste my life!”
The latter half of 1 Corinthians 14 (starting in verse 26) gives instruction about worship to the Corinthian church and concludes with “But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way” (v40)
I think the main problem and disagreement here is that people have different ideas of what is “fitting and orderly”. What was “fitting” for the Corinthian church is different than what is “fitting” today (see verses 34-35 for an example).
I think this is the crux of the issue. If there is a scripture that says anything that can even be stretched to mean rap shouldn’t be a part of worship, please share it. The fact of the matter is rap music, metal music, and all cultural styles of music are fitting and orderly for people from those cultures.
This is different from the example sharon gave earlier about the seductive songs because there are scriptures that flat out label that as sin. Let’s stop making assertions without scriptural warrants. If there is such a scripture about rap music or metal please share it!
“This is different from the example sharon gave earlier about the seductive songs”…but the point I was trying to make is that the song selection referenced was absolutely mainstream. It was not “a seductive song”. The culture of the world defined HOW it was sung, and therefore (I agree with you) it became sinful in its impact.
And THAT is the point about going to edges (in my opinion, again, often to try to prove how open-minded we can be): Rap originated in the world and has been used by the world to promote its culture. Giving it mainstream Christian words does not automatically redeem it.
As we (old people that we are) were en route to the Gaither Homecoming concert on Sunday, our ‘favorite radio station’ became unavailable over the miles, so hubby went to a contemporary Christian station. After a couple of minutes, we turned it off. We couldn’t understand the words, couldn’t discern any melody line–it was truly just noise.
I know I have strong feelings about this, and can indeed fall into the trap of simply focusing on “being right”…so I won’t post any further. I’ve explained my thoughts as well as I am able to.
“and all cultural styles of music are fitting and orderly for people from those cultures”
Did you watch the video posted above? That was orderly? I can’t help but think of the emperor not wearing any clothes.
Anyway, I’m done posting too. The call by some of us is to think a bit (not forbid) about what we consider worthy of worship or even what we spend our time with. I think Sharon gets it right with the following statement:
“Giving it mainstream Christian words does not automatically redeem it.”
I find that often when we try to define what is “fitting”, our age and generational preferences come into play.
60 years from now I’ll probably be complaining about the current state of worship music and telling my grandkids about the good old days when “we listened to rap music at church and tweeted our sermon notes”.
A couple thoughts which may help:
Worship is mainly a heart response, not an outward expression. So one’s heart response to what happens in the sunday service is most important. SO whether or not the congregation can actually sing along should not automatically disqualify a form of musical expression.
I assume most readers of this blog would affirm that listening to preaching is an act of worship. If we then compare rap to preaching rather than to a hymn or a praise chorus, it would be much more feasibly admitted into the sunday service. Its aim is still worship. Just via different means.
Lecrae’s song was a passionate, earnest, forceful call to not substitute anything for God (and thus waste your life). And the force and passion in the performance echoed the weight and urgency of the truth he was proclaiming.
Could Gregorian Chants be considered “rap”? If so… rap has been used in church for over a thousand years : )
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